Here is the place to post your thoughts on the book that the members of the Administrative Council are reading together. If you attend Hope UMC and wish to, just pick up a copy of the text and join the discussion. (UnChristian by David Kinnaman and Gabe Lyons)
Simply ad a comment to this post and we will keep a running thread. Please note that this is an open forum and that others are able to read your posts.
I look forward to our sharing on this material!
20 comments:
I look forward to the dialog. What is the hook - the main thing you have/are getting from the book that you hope is shared by others?
I think this is a well researched book on how those who are outside the church (non-believers and former church members)view the church/christians/christianity. From the church leadership perspective, I think it is critical for us to understand what the perceptions (real or imagined) are of those whom we may potentially reach and to be aware of the obstacles that we will need to overcome in order to reach them. From the church environment perspective, I think it also speaks to how we "do" church and might force us to think about what we do, how we do it, etc. I think if we listen to what they are saying here, it could make significant impact, both for those who already attend Hope and for those who potentially may.
I pray that our church can discuss progressive, 21st century strategies to help bring the unchurched and non-believers into a closer relationship with God through Jesus Christ....They too will be able to enjoy His love and peace and promise of "eternity" with Him in His Kingdom.
It will be an interesting exercise to work through how we might translate our Christian jargon (Worship, Discipleship, etc.) to language that communicates to the uninitiated.
Perhaps instead of "Bible Studies" what we could have are "Media Discussion Groups" that cycle through everthing from books and article discussions to Christian perspectives on popular television shows.
BTW I like the concept and pun of the blog title. The "bits and pieces" concept allows one to be comfortable just contributing just a sentence or short observation without the burden of trying to offer an essay.
Jonathan I think your suggestions are worth exploring and discussing.
Comfortable, laid back, non-threathening approaches work best in our present times. A lot of unchurched feel that churces are out of touch and not progressing with the times. Also, many unchurched attended church at one time and had negative experiences. Some say they did not fit in, did not feel comfortable, they were judged and they were expected to contribute money (which they did not have). We have to be prepared to listen to their concerns, be compassionate , ask for their input and nuture their growth.
Perhaps starting with an invitation to a very informal supper might be a start....
Agreed. Anything we can do to remove marriers to an experience of God's grace, including what we call things, is a positive step. One of the things we will discover in rwading this text is that we must counter the perceptions of those "outside" the faith (their term in the text) by being real, honest, and approachable. Thanks for your comments!
I ordered a copy of "Unchristian" on-line and received it today. I read Chapter 1 and was pleased to see that this book is based upon "scientific method" and not "opinion". The author obtained information from thousands of nonchristians, mostly ages 16-29, using interviews and surveys. He statistically analyzed the data and his conclusions are based upon the analysis of his results...The results do not paint a pretty picture of how nonchristians on the "outside" perceive Christians today...I applaude Pastor Kelly for asking the Hope congregation to read this book and start to "think outside of the box", beyond our "comfort zones". I encourage the congregation to get involved with this study and to start posting your comments...I think there is a lot to learn and discuss....
I'm through the first three chapters, seems to be focused on concerns that I also share. Are we as Christians attracting people to the Word? Much in this research would suggest we are not. How do we deal with such issues as tolerance/intolerance, judgment/non-judgment, concerned about the sins of others/concerned about our own sinfulness. How do we measure ourselves in terms of "being an example for others"? And how do we strike a balance between "walking in Christ-likeness" and being transparent about our own sinfulness? Many more questions to come, I'm sure.
Looking forward to seeing if this format helps us to reach the church body as a whole and out into the community.
I agree, Rick. It seems that much of what the church has done is to use God's Word to place judgment upon others, rather than the primary message, which is one of hope, forgiveness, and grace. I think our inability to live in authentic community is the root of the problem. In the church we need to "encourage one another" (Hebrews 3:12-15)and walk this journey of faith together. How we do that will be of central importance as we live out our faith here at Hope.
I think the church's presumed judgemental spirit is a paper tiger. Toothless compared to the real culprit which is lack of real, passionate, commited love.
That is why I think Rick's wording about balance, disclosure and transparency is so critically important!
Grace and mercy are only words and we border on fraud if they only go as far as hugs and handshakes. If we are not really engaged in one another's lives then any comment we, as the church makes about what is Truely True rather than just opinion will come off sounding to the world like "judgement".
Well said, Jonathan. I wonder what "real, passionate, committed love" would look like on the church? How would this look within the walls and what does it look like outside the walls?
I think the author's definition of hypocracy is on target, as it relates to our inability to "be ourselves" with each other. The failure to be authentic makes it difficult (perhaps impossible) to have those kind of adjectives apply to the church community. I agree that without being engaged with each other's lives, on a level that goes beyond aquaintence, we cannot speak the truth in love to any real degree. (Without a relationship, my word is only an opinion. Within a relationship, a word carries more weight, because it comes from someone I know and trust, who I believe has my best interest at heart. While it may hurt at times, I will give it the opportunity to speak to me, not because of what is said, but because of the relationship I have with the one who said it.)
As we have seen in our own small group experience, this can happen, but it requires time, patience, allowing trust to develop, and a relationship to be established. I think it is only in real relationship that we can have the kind of balance Rick refers to. What the authors go on to refer to in the next chapter)is that, to "outsiders", Christians seem more interested in "conversions" than in getting to know someone. (The criticism here is that we do not take the time to get to know those outside the church and only see them as a "project" or another "mark in our evangelism belt." This too speaks of the issue of relationship and developing trust. I think this is at the root here and again wonder what authentic relationship building would look like, both within and outside the church?
Actually, Jonathan, I wonder if those are really two sides of the same coin. On the one hand, we often do not seek out having closer relationships with one another, certainly not standing in the Narthex on Sunday morning, and perhaps we substitute for those loving, meaningful contacts, a more judgmental or rebuking attitude because we may be seeing a behavior that we presume to be "sinful" from afar, rather than seeing that behavior in its richer context, if we only knew that person better.
And again, we're back to the question of how those closer relationships are formed, thus the wish/desire/prayer that many others in the congregation could have the experience we've shared this past year in our "Companions" study/group.
I think that many Christians reading, "UnChristian" are struggling with the negative manner in which Christians are depicted. Although criticism is difficult to endure, this book is a wake up call for all Christians. If non-believers are not seeing Christ's light shining through us, how will we fulfill His "Great Commission"
(Mat 28:19)? Maybe it is time to "refocus" our discussions and studies on the teachings of Jesus Christ. What would Jesus say or do in particular circumstances? How do we incorporate His teachings into 21st century lives?
Set our thoughts and focus on "Jesus as our sole role model for living", so that we can once again be transformed into "beacons of His light, illuminating this dark world"....
I am sorry to be so late to the blog, but frankly I'm sturggling with the book as it lends into a weakness of mine to focus on what is in "general" relevant when I am most concerned and beleive that I need to stay focused on what is specific to Hope.
I don't argue that the current "church" that we know is not meeting the needs of those in the survey -- I struggle with seeing how we can as a group act to change that.
I want to change my language in the our conversations to a set of specifics like when you change the "Human Conditions" questions in Discples Bible study -- "I" language rather than in the third person.
I like Chapter 9 which raises some very provocative questions for me: Is my faith and the current practice of that faith sufficient to trust in the transforming church culture envisioned in the book? Am I or will I be willing to be "unchristian" in the manner that I have come to know it and will I be willing to work with others to the end that the connections and networks and loving realtionships (they talk about) which seem to form the essence of this vision come to pass in our church culture?
I want to know how is it that I am not loving or inviting to outsiders and in what ways will I have to change to gain thier trust - not generally but specificially here in this context.
We have access to a number of the demographic outsiders that form the basis for this survey. I don't think that we have conciously engaged any segment of people (perhaps that was the case when the church first started)am I willing to place a singficant emphasis on who is not here?
I have learned from prison work that only essential and basic change can be successful in the long term -- the people who have written this book are clear that they are talking about cultural change -- challenging assumtions and all of that stuff. It will place a great burden on those whom God has called to lead this transformation at Hope to keep focused on that cultural change.
If I am a part of leadership what work should I be doing to get ready?
I get a bit overwhelmed when the matter becomes connected to what this will look like and how we will begin to engage this kind of work. I'm still a little sore from the last round of attempts. I am looking forward to what I pray are substantial results from the rest of the upcomming revisiong steps and for some form of conversation with outsiders about faith in Jesus, rather than attendance at Hope.
Thanks
Lew
Another reason I don't blog is as you can see I have a tendency to ramble and not read the other commets as well as I should.
Lew:
I believe that church attendance statistics truly depicts what is going on in churches. If attendance is "up", it means that the congregation is excited about coming to Hope to worship, study and fellowship. It is important to pray about finding the balance between keeping our current congregation engaged and attending Hope and also reaching out to those in our community that do not have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Christ has blessed Hope Church with music and Experience Bethlehem. Maybe we can find creative ways to combine these gifts to reach out to those in our community that do not attend church and do not know God. Of course, we always give Christ all the praise, honor and glory for His abundant blessings upon our church.....
I am through three chapters of the book and so far I find it very interesting. Like Lew, I am trying to understand (without getting too far ahead of myself) and be open to how this can be applied here at Hope. Perhaps more directly, and honestly, to what degree am I willing to take that step and basically take what I believed to be the proper approach and change.
By now I hope you have had a chance to get a copy of UnChristian and have read a few chapters. In the section about the views of the church by "outsiders" (former church goers, people who adhere to another form of faith, or those who have no faith story) I was struck by the opeing discussion about hypocrisy. I have know for years that the church has struggled with being a witness for the truth about God while being filled with people who fall short of what God would have us to be. (Romans 3:23)
I think the authors make a very good point in regards to the fact that we spend a great deal of time and energy "talking the talk" and putting forth an image that we "have it all together" and need to be more honest about who we really are. To be authentic, open, and real is what we really need. I want and need to know that there are others around me who have the same struggles, doubts, heartache, etc. I want to know the comfort of walking with others through the challenges of life and the struggles of faith. Relationships that are based in honesty and authenticity should be the bedrock of our life togther in the church. What are your thoughts about this?
Pastor Kelly:
My life experience has revealed that relationships are very dynamic and usually don't stay the same. Sometimes they are up, sometimes down....and there is always room for improvement. I have found the Hope congregation to be a very "down to earth" group, showing each other a lot of love, support, concern and honesty. I have experienced this on a personal level, and observed these attributes as Hope serves Christ and people in need, in our communities.
I believe this congregation is ready and willing to be authentic with you and each other, as we walk our faith journey together as sisters and brothers in Christ.
Okay...I am finally chiming in. It seems to me that in the local church there are those that are willing to be risk vulnerability and be open with one another but we normally limit ourselves to those with whome we have built relationship and trust. It seems to me that this book is about taking these attributes into the world and building relationships with those we might not necessarily be otherwise drawn to. It's about going outside our comfort zones and working diligently, honestly to build authentic relationships without expecting "them" to necessarily come to our church. The truth often is that we don't want to get too involved in the lives of others - it might be inconvenient for us...ask us to invest time/efforts that we don't have or don't want to give!!
I found the finger pointing toward me as I read these words on pg 219: "What if millions of us are living for ourselves, even while we are going through the motions of religion?" How often we do or don't do things because they're not what we want to do!! We are such self-oriented creatures!!
I wonder how many of us have become so Christ-like that we are willing to go to dangerous (and maybe time consuming) territory in listening to and being in relationship with others???
I agree with your insight, Anne. This book challenges us to be real with others while encouraging us to reach out. I found it interesting to see how those outside the church view us and agree that if we were willing to become authentic, we could better serve each other and our community.
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